Interview with Margaret Laws Engle, 15 November 2017

Interviewer 1: Ian Post, Donna Brittinaham
Narrator 1: Mara ret Laws Engle
Topic: Salisbury University History

Keywords: Salisbury University History, William J. Holloway, Ruth Powell, Early
Salisbury University

Intro: Margaret Laws Engle, a student at the Maryland State Normal School from
1929 to 1931 and 1937 to 1939, discusses student life on campus in the late
1920s and 1930s. The 106-vear-old alum discusses her experiences as assistant to
the social director. Miss Ruth Powell, and the training she received to become an
educator from the school in its early years.

Ian Post: So, can you describe your memories of the Campus? What it was like when the
buildings—

Margaret Engle: Can I describe what?

Ian: Your memories of the campus? What was on it?

Engle: Oh yeah. It was only the north part. There wasn't any central part... of the campus.

There was only the north part. So, that meant that the middle part, the
low part, and the central part were not there at all. There was only the
north section there. Now, on that north section at the end next to
Camden, there was the library. Beyond that was... there was a little
auditorium, a little place where there was benches, chairs, like an
orchestra seating. Beyond that, there was a little place where you... let
me see, how to describe it... well, it was a place where you could sit and
view any kind of a play that was on. There were chairs where you could sit
in an audience situation and a little stage where performances were given.
Just a small stage. Then, beyond that in the back, was the elementary
school. There were three rooms, there was one and two— Mrs. Bradey, I
think, taught there—a three and four grade, and a five and six. Just three
levels of elementary school where we students, the first year we went to...
uh... let's see how I can explain it... we went to... elementary school
observation of teachers and how the good teaching was done. The first
year was theory; we studied. THe second year, we observed teachers that
were working, and the second year we also did practice teaching. We
practiced how to teach. We went in each room and we practiced how to
teach; First and second grade how to teach, third and fourth grade how to
teach, how to teach fifth and sixth grade teaching. We decided, after that
year of practice teaching, we decided which grade we liked best. Well,
mine, I liked upper grades, fifth and sixth grade teaching, better than the
lower grades. So, I was looking-- the next year, there were two years of
that: Theory and practice-teaching. Then, after two years, you were
graduated as a teacher. So, I chose the fifth and sixth grade as my
favorite. That was the year that it was very hard to find a job. So, the jobs
were scarce and there was no first and second grade classrooms available
in any of the jobs. But, there was a first and second grade available. So,

practice teaching in the fifth and sixth, but I went to the first grade, in
Anne Arundel County— I had never been away from home—in Anne
Arundel County, teaching first and second grade, prepared for teaching
fifth and sixth grade. Well, I made two years, and I did well with the first
grade. I still remember some; what a wonderful time we had. So, that
was my first year. Now, we'll come back to the college. I told you that the
college had no central part. I told all the northern part; the library and the
auditorium and stage, and the teaching—first three grades of teaching
that we studied. Now, what was I going to tell you? (Chuckling) What did I
say I was going to tell you next? Oh! After teaching a year or two, I went
back and I went and got my degree because at that time, the college had
been—the middle part had been built, columns had been built, the
southern part had been built. All that whole section had been built. The
university at that time, it was a college, not just a practice school, not just
a temporary—it was a college. A four-year college, and it was a well—I
went back then to get my degree because I only had a certificate before. I
went back to get my degree. Now, the first time, there were no boys
allowed on the college; '27-'29, no men. But when I went back to go to
the college, it was built all the way to the south. It was beautiful columns,
and men were allowed to attend. In fact, my brother Victor Laws, went to
college there the first few years, then he went off to college. I finished my
year, and got my degree in two more years. Those two years were
interesting because Mrs. Ruth Powell was the nurse, the dietician, she was
everything, and I was appointed as her assistant while I got my degree.
So, that two years, I studied, I got my degree, my BA, as Mrs. Ruth
Powell's assistant. So, I got my degree, then I went back to Anne Arundel
County to teach the ones I knew already. So, I went back to teaching
there. Now, let me see what else happened. Well, I had my degree then,
so I was paid enough and I was not an assistant anymore. So, after that, I
taught in Anne Arundel County again and went back to teach there. A little
later on, I started my master's degree and I went to Columbia University
in four summers; I went to summer school to get it. So, I got my master's
degree then. Let's see what else I can tell you...

Ian: What was it like working with Mrs. Ruth Powell? (repeats so Mrs. Engle can hear)

Engle: Oh, it was fascinating. She and I got along fine. She knew my mother; she and my
mother were great friends. So, she was very good to me but she was very
strict, very strict, and I had to do everything just her way. I loved Mrs.
Ruth. Once a week, I would wash her hair and set it with combs, back and
forth with combs. I don't know how you do it now, but that's how we did it
then. Mrs. Ruth, in fact, and I were friends, but I guess we were also— I
was also under her tutelage and under her power and under her
instruction. In other words, she was the boss and I was not. I went there
two more years, studying for a degree and working for Mrs. Powell was
not easy doing that, but I finished my degree. I got my bachelor's degree
from the university. Then I began summer school for my master's degree,
Columbia University.

Ian: What was the difference from when you started in 19—in the 20's until the late 30s?

Engle: Oh, there was a big difference. The whole university had been built. At the

beginning, in '27-'29, there was just the northern part. There was no
middle, no southern part. When I went back, there was a middle part that

had been built— I mean, the auditorium had been built, the beautiful
auditorium that we have now, and big columns had been built. The
southern section, at that time, was where we had our lunch, our dinner,
below the middle part that I was talking about. By the way, when we went
to talking about the first part, we had our dinners in the basement. Now,
when I went back, we had this beautiful dining room at the southern end
of the living room.

Donna Brittingham: Holloway Hall, we call it.

Engle: Yeah! Yup.

Ian: What was it like as a Baglian(?)? A member of the Baglian society?

Engle: I wasn't in the Baglian. What was the other one?

Ian: Carnean(?)?

Engle: No, I was in the Baglian, that's right. Well, we had social events. I don't remember
much about them because I was so busy with Mrs. Ruth Powell's
instructions. They had to be done on-time.

Donna: What did she have you do? What were some of your duties for her?

Engle: Well, I had to take care of the students. I was only a few years older than the
students; I was almost their age. Well, I had to discipline them. They
were, a lot of them, on the third floor and Ruth didn't want to go up that
far to the third floor, so I was the one who had to do it. I had to discipline
the girls. Well, they took a dim view of me because I was just a little older
than they were and I was telling them what to do. But I had to do it,
especially during holidays like Halloween and Thanksgiving and times like
that. A lot of times, instead of going home, which was 12 miles away, I
would stay there and do her duties.

Ian: What's it been like to be a part of the alumni and lead some of the alumni?

Engle: It's been a wonderful, wonderful thing. I was head of the alumni association for
several years and I enjoyed it.... what?

Donna: That's for you. It's a magnet for your refrigerator.

Engle: oh, how nice.

Donna: I'll put it up there, and if you want to keep it, keep it, and if you don't want it, you
can take it down.

Engle: oh, I love it! That's pretty! I love the color! That's pretty.

Ian: Do you remember who some of your friends were at the campus?

Engle: Yes. Catharine Harrison, she was my roommate, and she was from Tilghman Island.

There was a Polly Van Pelton (?). She was from... northern part of
Maryland, I can't remember, but she was not from the Eastern Shore. I
remember those two.

Ian: Do you remember going on any picnics out to Chincoteague?

Engle: Yep!

Ian: We have a video of that. They took a film of it.

Engle: Oh, really?

Ian: What do you remember about those picnics?

Engle: I remember the food. The food was so good, and we were the ones—Salisbury State
were the ones that provided it, you know. Mrs. Ruth Powell was the one
that orchestrated it then. There was a cook who was a renowned cook, I
can't remember her name now, but she was a wonderful cook, but I can't-
- Edna seems to be—Edna, but I'm not sure. But the girls had to help
serve in the dining room at night. We had to set the table before dinner in
the formal dining room. The dining room, of course as I told you, the far
southern end of the building. What did we say the name of that was? The
dining room?

Donna: Holloway Hall.

Ian: I think it's called the great hall, now, in Holloway Hall.

Engle: Yeah! That was Holloway Hall. That whole section in there. That came from the first
president, whose name was Holloway.

Ian: What was it like going to school under William Holloway? — Principal Holloway?

Engle: Going to school what?

Ian: —under him. When he was the principal, what was it like with him?

Engle: Oh, he was a good principal, a good man. I can't remember who followed him. But,
anyway, we liked President Holloway.

Donna: What did you call him? Dr. Holloway?

Engle: Dr. Holloway. Yup.

Ian: Do you remember when they first started doing "Mayday"?

Engle: No, but I remember doing it. We were dancing around a Maypole, and I remember
that. We had a teacher named Margret Black, and she was wonderful. A
great musician.

Ian: Do you remember any of the Glee Club? The "Show Echo" (?) Glee club?

Engle: Oh, the Glee club? I remember I was in it! I remember our dresses; our dresses
were made of organdy, pale organdy. Organdy is a material that is thin
but stiff, and so we all had organdy dresses with full skirts and tight
blouses. We all had—sometimes we had organdy hats made the same the
color as our dresses, but we didn't always wear hats. We had green and
yellow and pink and red, different color materials. Beautiful dresses, all
made by one seamstress to fit each person.

Ian: Do you remember any of the performances?

Engle: Any of the performances? No, I don't remember the performances, but I remember
that we had them. We had performances, but I don't remember any of
them.

Ian: Who were some of your mentors?

Engle: Mentors? There was a teacher named "Bennet" and there was a teacher named
"Matthews"... what?

Ian: Oh, I didn't know if you needed to eat right now. You let me know if you need to pause
it to eat.

Engle: If I need to what?

Ian: Pause at all to eat.

Engle: I didn't hear what you said.

Donna: We don't want you to get too hungry, so...

Engle: Oh, that's alright.

Donna: Are you ok right now?

Engle: Sure!

Ian: I'm sorry, you were talking about Mrs. Matthews?

Engle: Yeah. She was an English teacher, and she was petite little woman and she knew
her English. Margret Black was a wonderful music teacher. Not only did
she teach the music songs, she taught the rest of us music by fingers, on
the piano. A beautiful, pretty woman, Margret Black.

Donna: What kind of songs? Do you remember any?

Engle: No, I don't remember. I remember that we were well-applauded. Our glee club went
all over the scene. But I thought it was interesting to remember that there
were no boys, no men, in the first group '27-'29. But when I went back,
there had been many allowed to attend. I thought that was interesting.

Ian: Did boys ever sneak on campus?

Engle: Oh yeah, they sure did. And they were well-punished.

Donna: I was going to say. I heard Mrs. Ruth did not like that.

Engle: Uh-uh. She did not. She gave me what-for if I didn't do it right. She was a

wonderful woman; capable in every way. She managed the sick people,
managed the sick ones, and she managed the buying of the food, the
preparing of the food, the distributing of the food. She was a wonderful
woman. Not pretty, uh-uh, not pretty; but she was fascinating by the way
she could do her job. Everything from nursing to preparing food to buying
food—preparing food, making up menus—wonderful woman.

Donna: Did she teach the girls manners?

Engle: Yup. Oh, she did. She taught us manners and she thought it was right that we wore
stockings. She didn't think we should go bare-legged. No, she'd wear her
stockings. When we have dances, we'd have dances in the front hall, she
was there to watch there was no bad manners among the participants of
the dance. I mean, we went right and we acted right (chuckling).

Ian: How was it living in the dorms?

Engle: Oh, that was interesting. We had inspection of the rooms to see how well they were
kept and if they weren't kept well, the keeper was in trouble because they

weren't clean or they weren't neat. If they were, then they got respect
and credit for it. But we had inspection set on a special day and a special
time. I forget where that was. But those rooms were inspected for dust
and everything, you know. Yup.

Ian: What's it been like to see the University grow so big now?

Engle: Oh, yes. It's stupendous to us oldest! Can't believe it! I've been back several years
to go to meetings and enjoy it. It's a wonderful thing for the community.

Ian: Do you remember the community's reaction when they first started the school? What
people thought?

Engle: No, I don't remember that.

Donna: Too long ago.

Ian: Did you have anything else you wanted to add? I don't want to take up too much of
your time.

Engle: Anything else? I can't think of anything else.

Donna: How did your parents feel, you being from wango (?), coming all the way to
Salisbury and go to school?

Engle: Oh, they were delighted! They wanted us to go to school. So, after I started, then
my brother came. But, he didn't last very long because he was so bright
that he soon finished up and had to teach, then he went on to... he
started after the time that I told you that the boys were... first they didn't
have any young men, and then when I went back and the building was
built, and it was then a college. When I went back, it was then a college
and you could get a bachelor's degree there. When I first went, '27 to '29,
there was only two years, so it had grown that much. I don't know when it
became a university, I don't know those dates. But over there,
somewhere, on the shelves, I have a list of one book that has all the
people's names in it and what they were graduating for, but I don't know
where it is. I haven't seen it in a long time. It was a black book.

Ian: Do you remember a name "May Corkren"(?)?

Engle: Corkren? No.

Ian: Or Margret Hankins(?)?

Engle: Margret who?

Ian: Hankins?

Engle: Yeah, I think I remember her.

Ian: We have a photgraph scrapbook of hers.

Engle: Yeah. I think I remember her, but not the first lady.

Donna: What other kinds of stuff from that time range, the personalities...

Ian: Do you remember working for the Holly Leaf?

Engle: What? I don't understand.

Ian: The Holly Leaf? The newspaper>

Engle: Oh yeah! Yeah.

Ian: What do you remember about writing for that?

Engle: Well, now, what paper are you talking about?

Ian: The Holly Leaf?

Engle: Oh yeah, I consulted on several articles. But I was so busy taking care of Mrs.
Ruth's demands, I didn't have much time for that.

Ian: What about the student grange?

Engle: What?

Ian: THe grange? The student grange?

Donna: Grange. Grange. What was that...

Ian: The farming organization.

Donna: The farming group. The grange.

Engle: Oh, the farming group. No, I don't know anything about them.

Ian: Do you remember any of the literary debates or productions that you did with the
Baglian or Carnian?

Engle: I remember we had them, I don't remember what the debates were.

Ian: Where did you do those?

Engle: Where? In a room in the university, in the college, but I don't remember where it
was.

Donna: Like, in the north part? Or the South part?

Engle: it was in the north part. The south part was the food and the social. The north part
was more of the meetings and the teacher's rooms and offices. The
teacher's offices.

Ian: What was it like having kids on-campus? With the Elementary school.

Engle: I don't understand it. Having kids...?

Donna: What was it like having kids at the school with you?

Engle: oh, it was fine. We learned their names, we had to teach them in student teaching.

There were three rooms with students in them, and the parents had to
apply to get the students into the school. I know that my two nephews
went to that school and liked it. I remember one teacher was named
"Bradey"; Mrs. Bradey, but I can't remember what grade. Seems to me
she taught first and second. Then there was one named, maybe,
"Francis", Mrs. Francis. She might have taught fifth and sixth, but I can't
remember that either, not for sure.

Ian: Do you have any memories of Ben Maggs?

Engle: Of what?

Ian: Ben Maggs?

Engle: Yes! He was a wonderful person to take care of athletics. Wonderful. Well-liked by
everybody; by the students, by the teachers... yes, Ben Maggs was
wonderful.

Donna: Did you have sports? Any athletics the first time you went?

Engle: No. I don't remember anything about that.

Donna: But when you went back?

Engle: Yeah, we had it. A gym then, and we had a man to teach it; I guess it was Ben
Maggs.

Donna: (to Ian) Do you know where the gym was?

Ian: In Holloway. (To Mrs. Engle) What about Dr. Caruthers?

Engle: What?

Ian: Dr. Caruthers. Did you ever do any music classes with him?

Engle: Oh, yes. He was a wonderful, wonderful man. He and my brother would have

arguments about different types of study and he told my brother that he
was smart enough—he and my brother—was smart enough to do anything
that he wanted to do. And, uh, so he was. He went over his educational
experiences with him and... it's what he thought he was capable of and
helped him out. I keep mopping my mouth because I have some kind of
an allergy. I'm going to the doctor to try to get rid of it. Otherwise, my
health is good.

Donna: Did Dr. Caruthers encourage your brother to go to law school?

Engle: Yeah, he did. He thought he would be a good lawyer. Dr. Caruthers was a smart
man. Then we see his son, Wade, whatever happened to wade?

Ian: He passed away in the early '90s.

Engle: Did he?

Ian: But we have some photographs from when he was a kid.

Engle: Uh-huh. I remember Wade and I remember the woman he fell in love with. What

was her name... I can't remember her name now, but I remember that he
fell in love with this girl and was in love with her the whole time. Seems to
me they were killed in an automobile accident on route going into
Salisbury. There was something about... I don't remember what. But I
remember there was a death or two.

Ian: Do you remember how they met?

Engle: They met at the college as far as I know.

Ian: What do you remember about him when he was younger?

Engle: What do I remember what?

Donna: What do you remember about Wade when he was younger.

Engle: That he was a young man and was growing up. That's all I remember.

Ian: Did you feel like the school trained you well for teaching and being an administrator?

Engle: Yes, I did. I think it was a wonderful opportunity for the people on the eastern shore
to have this educational facility develop here in Salisbury.

Donna: Now, I read that Dr. Holloway wanted the Salisbury normal school to train rural
teachers because of the eastern shore small one-room schools. Did you
see that kind of training as being different?

Engle: I thought that's what they were training?

Donna: Just to train teachers locally for the one-room schoolhouses we had.

Engle: Yeah, they taught that. I remember I went to Sharptown for some of my teaching
experience.

Donna: Was that a one-room?

Engle: It was a one-room Sharptown school.

Ian: Did you have a potbelly stove?

Engle: Yup! I went to one with a potbelly stove.

Ian: What do you remember about that?

Engle: I remember that if you were close to the stove, you were very hot, but if you were
away from the stove, you were chilly.

Donna: Do you remember the one on the Pow farm on Pow School road? Where Goreman
lived?

Engle: Yeah.

Donna: There was a one-room schoolhouse there where Goreman lived.

Engle: Sure. And the Davis' live there now. Some family, part of the Davis, have had it
built into a house, and is used as a house, not a school. Not even
renovated as a school. Used as a house alone.

Donna: Do you think the people you went to school with, did any of them stay on the
Eastern Shore? Did a lot have to leave to find jobs?

Engle: I think a lot of them stayed on the Eastern Shore. I'm an example. I went away, had
some experience, some learning as well as experience, then came back.
Here I am.

Donna: Where did you teach after you got your masters? Did you keep teaching?

Engle: I went back to teaching on the eastern shore, and at that time, it was during the
war. It was a very bad time for the United States and for the Eastern
Shore. So, I was teaching, at that time, third grade in Anne Arundel
county. I've forgotten the name of the school now. I was asked by my
parents to come home, they needed help. They needed to get along. My
brother was away in the army, and they were alone and needed help. So,

I gave up my job and went back to the shore. There was no... nothing to
do. No job. So, I went to... I've forgotten...

Ian: You taught in Snow Hill?

Engle: What?

Ian: You taught in Snow Hill, then, I think.

Engle: I did, I taught... I left Anne Arundel and went to Worchester county. There I taught
at Snow Hill. But first, I was supervisor of schools for a year or two. Then
I had to leave because I was pregnant. I got married, and had two
children. So, I went back to home life. For thirteen years, I taught my
children and took care of my house. Then they said they needed help. So,
after thirteen years out, I got a job again. They had a fourth-grade
opening, Would I teach there, "yes". They said, "Well, you're going to
need money if we're going to send your daughter and son to college, so
you better come here and get some money... some money... something to
do." So, I said, "OK" So, I went back to Worchester County and taught in
Snow Hill.

Ian: How did you stay in touch with your friends from school? Did you write a lot?

Engle: Yeah, and sometimes we would visit. My roommate was Polly Van Pelton, and we

went through the years together. Yup. Sometimes we would do to see my
other girlfriend, and that was Catharine Harrison, from Tilghman, then
there was some from—local people. I can't remember their names now.

But I've got this allergy, and I have to keep wiping my nose.

Donna: Where did you meet your husband?

Engle: That's an interesting story. My husband was a friend of my brother. They were in
the army together, fellow soldiers. George Engle and my brother, Victor
Laws. So, they—George came down to visit Victor Laws and met me and
we got married. Now, that was an occasion. I was married at home in
front of the fireplace in June, 1906. Enjoyed being married to him, George
Engle, from 1930 to when he died in 1996. We had two children.

Donna: So, you married him in 1932? Right after school?

Engle: We were married in 1938... I can't remember.

Ian: What do you remember about the Old School Baptist Church?

Engle: I remember going to a lot of dinners. The women would prepare all of these fancy
dinners, cakes and pies, friend chicken, wonderful dinners. They'd all be
laid out on a slab of wood covered with paper, and we would go there on a
Sunday and have a wonderful meal.

Ian: When did you become a member?

Engle: ... I've forgotten.

Ian: Do you remember when it closed down?

Engle: What?

Ian: Do you remember when it closed down and you merged with the Forest Grove?

Engle: I don't remember that either, but I remember that I've always been a member of
that church.

Donna: Goreman always talked about the Old-School Baptists.

Engle: Yup. They're good people. We have a new church and it's called... well it's in

Parsonsburg. It's called Salisbury Old School Baptist Church, because we
sold our Salisbury Church to a group of men who have... well I think it's a
group of lawyers that operate the church now as... their offices.

Ian: So, I guess, one last question, what kind of advice do you have for future students and
future teachers?

Engle: Advice? Stick to it because you know it's a good profession. Stick to it... work with
the community for the betterment of the community. That's it.

Ian: Well, thank you so much for talking today.

Engle: Oh, you're welcome. It's not been—I've been worth much, but...

Ian: Oh, it's incredible.

Donna: It's been worth a lot. Very good.

Engle: It's very kind of you to say that.

Ian: We really appreciate it. Your memories will carry.

Engle: I'm sorry. I can still see. I can't see enough to read or write, but I can see your
shapes, but I can't hear much. That's a great loss. Eyesight, hearing,
nose, and mouth are the way you learn. What am I trying to say?

Donna: Senses.

Engle: Senses, that's right.

Donna: But when I talk loud, you can hear me, so you're doing very well!

Engle: Well, I can hear some voices better than others. I can hear your voice better than
his voice. But that's just an incidental thing.

Donna: Well, guess what: Goreman couldn't hear Libbey at all. She thought it was on
purpose. Do you know Goreman's wife, Libbey?

Engle: Yeah.

Donna: She was at Dryden.

Engle: Yeah.

Ian: Thanks again, thank you.

Engle: Yeah...

(Audio Ends)